Brent Warner 0:00
This is the HigherEdTech podcast Season Five, Episode Eight: What is needed to purchase software on a college campus?

Tim Van Norman 0:20
Welcome to today’s HigherEdTech Podcast. I’m Tim Van Norman, the Instructional Technologist at Irvine Valley College.

Brent Warner 0:26
And I’m Brent Warner professor of ESL here at IVC. We both enjoy integrating technology into the classroom, which is what this show is all about.

Tim Van Norman 0:34
Welcome. We’re glad you’re here with us. Well, just realize this is our show right before Thanksgiving. Yeah. So how’s Thanksgiving there? We’re having Thanksgiving at our place. We’re having friends over and stuff like that here. But what’s Thanksgiving, like they’re in Japan,

Brent Warner 0:52
It’s pretty non existent. Every once in a while, you’ll see, you know, foreigners who live here trying to do something, but most Japanese houses don’t have an oven. And so there’s no… you know, you don’t really think about it until you think about it, that you need an oven to do Thanksgiving. So you can go out, you can’t really buy Turkey very much in Japan, I’ve never, I’ve never seen it, you know, regularly for sale anywhere, I think you might be able to get some specialty shops. And so all of the things that are kind of common for us as Americans, and you know, those ingredients just aren’t readily available, even cranberries, and you know, all of those types of things. So, obviously, it’s an American holiday, it doesn’t, it doesn’t need to exist in Japan. But sometimes when people want to do it or do their own versions of it, they come up with a lot of struggles, because the stuff’s just not available. So but I’ll maybe, you know, watch a special online or something like that. That will be my Thanksgiving

Tim Van Norman 1:54
The day after is the Black Friday part

Brent Warner 1:56
Yeah, they do do a Black Friday, though. So I guess there’s there’s something, something to be said. I don’t know if it’s good or bad, but it exists anyway. So everything else going okay on campus?

Tim Van Norman 2:07
Yeah, It’s been busy, especially as we’re now starting the wind down classes have released at the beginning of November, and yet people are, are looking at what that next step is for them. So…

Brent Warner 2:24
Cool, well today we’re gonna get into a little bit of software purchasing. So Tim, you and I have talked about that we talked about this actually a lot more. Like, oh, this whole process of doing it, why did what do I need what I need to think about? And the reason this came up to him was because I was into well, I mean, it comes up again regularly, but particularly this time it came up because I was interested in this new ish software package that someone said, Hey, there’s this thing going on. I was like, okay, that’s kind of cool. I wonder if that could be integrated. And then. And the very first thing I was like, well, this couldn’t really be used. It’s just a brand new thing that maybe someone’s making with like, their chat GPT skin or something like that? And how would I reach out to that company and see if they’re actually eligible to be software on the campus, right? Like it? How is it okay for me to test this thing, you know, I can do a little silly things by myself a one on one with a student in class. But that’s not the same as integrating it and seeing what it works for grading and all those types of things. So, so I thought we’d talk about this, because a lot of people get confused about that whole process. And a lot of us teachers, like teachers, like me get excited about something and like, I want to do this right now bring it into my class, right? And then you and then you sit there and you go, hold on a second, there’s some things we need to take into consideration. And so I thought it might be useful for people to kind of think about, it’s not just that we want something, right. It’s not just that it’s gonna it’s a shiny thing on the conference, exhibit hall floor that we look at, go Okay, that seems cool. Or maybe that person is really actually a dedicated educator who created some software on their in their spare time, but they don’t know what the business of working with a college is and what the expectations are legally to be able to get their their stuff on campus. So I thought we’d talk about that. It is going to get in the weeds a bit. But that’s okay. You know, for for the people who are like me and really want to try to push and get, you know, new things going all the time and see what’s you know, tried to innovate with different things. I think it’d be useful to kind of have a little bit of a reality check, as well with it all. So what do we need to know? Yes.

Tim Van Norman 4:41
All right. So let’s go ahead and get into it. First of all, as an instructional technologist, I love it when people bring in new toys, bringing new options and stuff like that. But when that happens, there’s all kinds of levels that I have to go through. Before I can say yes. And that’s really what we’re talking about. We’re going to talk about accessibility, we’re going to talk about a lot of different things. But the first thing is, what do you want to use it for? And how does that compare to stuff we already have? Okay? Now, there’s a lot of times when to an outsider, it looks just like 12 other tools. Alright, you might see the nuance. But number one, everything just like most things in life, communicate, communication is the is the foundation because somebody has to make a decision, and I can guarantee they’re not going to look at any software package, they’re going to read something, and they’re gonna go, oh, we already have this No, or, Oh, this is something new, and make a decision on whether or not to pay for it. So we’re also I’m going to touch briefly on price. Every place you go, pricing is an issue, right? You’ve got to figure out what that is, what’s appropriate, what budget, you’ve got those types of things. So just understand that. That’s probably the extent of what we’re going to talk about with price. Because Because that’s different for every single organization, by the way, free does cost. Yeah. So just because something is free doesn’t mean that oh, this means that it should automatically go through the process. Sometimes it’s faster, sometimes it’s actually slower. Because often, when you get something for free, the people you’re getting it from don’t want to put the time in to do the other stuff that we’re going to talk about.

Brent Warner 6:35
Yeah, well, let’s step back, just briefly, Tim, to the first one, which is, you know, do we have something that’s kind of equivalent to it already? A lot of times teachers don’t really know. So I think I’ll go with it. Like one of the the easiest examples is like, you know, am I using a playposit, right? Or am I using

Tim Van Norman 6:57
Canvas studio or… there’s a lot of them

Brent Warner 7:02
And EdPuzzle is the big one that tends to be kind of brought up as the equivalent. And so maybe, maybe you don’t know that you have access to one of those on your campus already, too, right? So you might be saying, hey, I want to bring an ED puzzle. And I go, Well, we already have, you know, a whole statewide deal with with Playposit. So let’s take a look and see if we can do those right. And so So I think that those are things that maybe the teachers don’t always know what’s accessible, or what’s what’s, what’s available to them. And so it’s just, it shouldn’t be part of the first questions, right? Like, hey, this is the thing I’m trying to do. Let’s talk a little bit about it. Do we have anything like that? Yes, no. And so that really can open up the conversation to get you on the right path as well.

Tim Van Norman 7:43
Right, and many organizations have a website, or have one or two people that would know that information, or that you can ask, so definitely see what you can find out. And then from there, there’s a process. Hopefully, it’s formalized. I know, a lot of places don’t have a formal process. But they whether whether the process is formalized, and you know it, there’s always something in the background, that is a formalized process for how to handle these requests. So first of all, is there a form that you need to fill out and requested? This can be in a number of different places, it could be somebody like your instructional technologist, your dean, your IT department, online education committees, somebody

Brent Warner 8:38
probably has a process in place that you need to talk to, to find out about it, they also probably are the people you would talk to to find out if something else exists, that would be similar. So to two birds with one stone, try to try to get them both. And hopefully, you’ll get you’ll get both of them out of the way at the same time there. And I’m just gonna look at that. Yeah, look at it, for sure. And then also, this is going back to the price thing to Tim, sometimes, it’s like, Hey, this is a big deal, because it’s a huge ask, and it’s a multi $1,000 or whatever thing that’s going to be a regular process, it would be expensive. And so that would have to go through a whole process. But sometimes sometimes I’m not saying this is always true. But sometimes your dean might have a slush fund and just be like, Oh, I can, I can just request to get an individual account for your $60 request, you know, whatever it is, right? And so, so there can be differences between those as well. And so it’s not always necessarily to you, it’s not always going to look as the teacher, it’s not always going to look like the same exact process. It might be, it might always be no you always have to do this step. But it also might be worth knowing a few of the people who have the connections just to see well, in this case, what do I do in this that case? What do I do right? And so again, make sure that you know your your team players and who and who they are and what they do.

Tim Van Norman 9:55
Along those lines. These are the same people who you would talk to that might tell you Do we cannot buy an individual license? So we get requests all the time for individual subscriptions? There are very specific rules that we have to follow to do something that’s a subscription, right? That’s a single license, that’s whatever, there’s really specific rules that might even be different than if we were just getting a site license or buying 100 licenses or something like that. And so every question you ask can lead to different answers. So just understand that work with us. When you’re, we, if we say no, ask why and what can we do? And because often, we do have a reason. Not just I’m sorry, but you’re the 20th person to ask me for something today. But, but at also, please don’t ask for something that you need. In December, end of December, don’t ask for something you need for your January class. Yeah, to give us time to get it. Right. Okay. I have had literally the week before school started, I got requests for five different new tools. In that week. I cannot make that happen. That is the worst, the worst week at all, you know, evolved for me to make something happen. So So yes, do yourself and do us a favor and work with us on

Brent Warner 11:30
how you might might need to have the patience and then plan for like, almost really for like a full semester out before you probably get access to it. Right?

Tim Van Norman 11:37
Oh, and the reality is, if this is a new tool, are you really going to be up and running and turn it on for your whole class? All of your classes? Yeah.

Brent Warner 11:48
You’re probably want to get it closer to the end of the semester so that you can try it out and make sure it’s going to work before you actually implement it for your whole class. Yeah, do a couple of tests runs. Okay, cool. So so you get into this process. And again, it’ll look different for everyone. But you need to figure out what’s going on on your campus to be able to get that done talking to the right people making that request. And then kind of from there, Tim, I feel like a lot of the teachers go well, like, and then it just disappears. And I don’t know what happens right at that point anymore. And like maybe I get it, and maybe I don’t. So this is where your real work comes in. Absolutely.

Tim Van Norman 12:23
So a lot of it boils down to the contract terms and conditions. All of the aspects of what goes into the contract itself. And understand that vendors, vendors will, and I understand they will do what’s best for them. They will also ask for anything that they can get, so that they can make sure that they can do what they want to do. But understand that we can’t have that. So we’ve had vendors asked for the world. And when we kicked back, we eventually were told oh, well, we don’t need that. We just wanted it in case in the future. We wanted to do something with it.

Brent Warner 13:10
Oh, yeah. People wanted like root access to our databases. And yes, it’s crazy.

Tim Van Norman 13:16
In one case, they literally were requiring us to give my level of access to our learning management system. Sorry, no. Okay. So what what is that term security, we need to make sure that you have the appropriate they have the appropriate level of security. And this can be weeks long back and forth trying to get to exactly what is appropriate for what they are requesting. Part of that is FERPA, FERPA is a federal law. We don’t want to violate FERPA, we had an episode about a year ago on on FERPA and some different aspects of that. But understand, this is something that is really key to us. I tend to be extra cautious when it comes to anything related to PII personally identifiable information for your students, for you for anything like that. And so this really cool website that all the student has to do is log in and they’ve got access to all of these cool tools. And it puts the grade right back in Canvas for me. Imagine how much personally identifiable information is just in that one statement I made. Right. Okay. And so from that perspective alone, we’ve got some stuff we’ve got to make sure it’s covered in there. Right now, lots of community colleges are dealing with lots of higher education institutions. too, but a community colleges especially either are dealing with or are afraid of dealing with ransomware? What’s going on with that? How are you protecting us from ransomware? Is what we keep asking these vendors? What are you doing to make sure you’re not going to get hit with ransomware? Okay. If you look at a lot of the hacks that have happened in throughout history, many of those hacks, Target, for instance, several years ago, several of these others, those didn’t come through the main organization, they came in through a vendor. We don’t want to be that person.

Brent Warner 15:43
Right? So it’s kind of like a, like a, I mean, they talked about the the ransomware, the Trojan horse, right? So it’s like the vendor gets, right. And then they’re sneaking in, through, through and through through the vendor. Yeah, that makes sense. And so

Tim Van Norman 15:59
we’re, we’re extra cautious. We, as a college, it’s our district that’s actually at risk, should something happen, they’re the ones who would have to pay or would be in trouble. So we’re, our job is to protect them. Their job is to protect them. And by the way, all of our jobs are to protect our faculty, our staff, and especially our students. We don’t want our students to have problems because we did something wrong. So we’re extra cautious about stuff like that. So we ask for terms and conditions. And I’m personally I hate reading terms and conditions, I do everything I can not to those wind up going to district. And so that means somebody a district that knows a whole lot more about contracts than I do, goes through the terms of conditions, red lines, and sends them back and it goes back and forth, sometimes multiple times, depending on what’s going on. And sometimes it’s just a no, not going to do it. Okay, so that all happens behind the scenes. I don’t even know until all of a sudden I get a message back saying it worked. Or, or no, this is it’s a problem. Right?

Brent Warner 17:20
So so we’re looking at. So now it’s going from, we’re just as one example, right? It goes from me as the teacher making the requests maybe to to an organization or to a group or to you, right, and then you’re going through these processes and saying, Hey, this is what we need. Here’s the terms and condition, those terms and conditions, then go to someone at district for them to start reading, right. And so, so it’s like we’re moving more and more in layers away from the original person making the request, which becomes frustrating for that person, right? Because they’re like, I just wanted to get this simple thing going. Right? It feels like it that way. Right? So, so just just kind of keeping in mind, these are all the things that need to happen in order to make sure students are safe, teachers are safe, information is not being compromised, etc. Okay, so. So what else do we have to deal with here? So,

Tim Van Norman 18:06
so one of the big ones that we deal with a lot is the V Pat. And this is something the V Pat is a Voluntary Product Accessibility Template. So it is voluntary for companies to create it, it is not a legal requirement. However, if you look up VPAT on Google, you will find especially if you say higher education VPAT, you will find college district after district saying we require this or you we will say no automatically to your request. So a VPAT. It’s a voluntary form. But it is once it is filled out and submitted as part of the contract, it then becomes part of the contract. So it does have to be accurate. It’s not just something somebody can just fill out and hand in. It deals with things that are related to Section 504 and section 508, which has to do with accessibility. So 504 is student accommodations. It’s accommodations in general, but we think of a usually a student, that would be like our DSPs department, stuff like that. 508 is everything. Everything else. So is the website accessible? That’s 508. Do we have color contrast issues that are just in general, on different things that we’re doing? That’s not an accommodation? That’s an accessibility? So that falls under five oh, wait. So we have to look at both of those. And that VPAT helps us it gives us a template that we could just flow through. We don’t have to go through and guess what this some text that somebody wrote up to get around, get around those people looking for accessibility issues. What did they mean? It gives us something that’s pretty clear, and easy to go through. It’s long, it’s not pages long.

Brent Warner 20:16
So let’s just take one looses take the color contrast as an example, right. So if this company, for example is going to, they have a tool that’s going to be a, an LTI plugin for Canvas, right, it’s going to when you click on the button, it’s going to show up inside of a Canvas page as an assignment, and it’s going to link to the gradebook. And when they do the assignment, they’re gonna make their video or whatever, they’re gonna make the assignment and then you can grade it right. And so maybe inside of this document, then it would verify that like, Hey, we’re not just we’re not just writing, like grey text on a white background for this LTI. Right. Like, we’re, you know, we’re actually saying that these hit color contrast requirements for low vision students, or whatever it is, right. So that type of information is what’s in there. And thinking about how like, detailed that is, like, I know that there’s been people blessing Oh, my God, right. But it’s like, that’s why it starts taking time to get all of this done and verified that you’re, we’re on the right steps or the it’s something that we can use. Right.

Tim Van Norman 21:21
Right. And we don’t want to ask you to do it. Right. We that’s not your job to fill out a V pad for somebody. By the way, it’s not my job, either. And the vendor that already have one,

Brent Warner 21:35
yeah, so the vendors have to already show that they’re ready with all of these things, that they understand what these requirements are at the higher ed level or at the college level, typically, because if they have that form already ready to go, you know, it’s a lot of work. But once they’ve done it once, then they can be a vendor to almost any college or university. Right? Right.

Tim Van Norman 21:55
We do ask that although it not everybody makes it a requirement, we ask that it at least have been created in the last 18 months. It really scares me what a product says that, you know, 2016 is the last time they updated it. You know, we’re a long ways past, then COVID pass, then you you think that at least they’ve updated it since COVID. So it’s things like that, that we just red flags, doesn’t mean that there’s a problem, it just means that we need to go through it. And we often deal with things like we WCA G, the web content accessibility guide. So if a site says we follow this, and here’s the V. Pat, that takes a whole lot of issue off of us. We can we can file the V Pat, we take a quick look through it. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, it all matches, here we go. This is not meant to be a block. This is meant to help us going forward and help you going forward. Because if the contents not accessible, then it can be where you’re forced to do something for your student, that doesn’t work. And that causes more issues for you in the future.

Brent Warner 23:21
This is also making me think, Tim, I know that a lot of teachers will be like me, and they’re like, I want to help the scrappy startup, I don’t want to help the big corporate Google or whatever, again, you know, but like, here’s an easy case, where you can see, a major corporation is going to have this stuff going on, like they’re going to know, and they’re going to have people and they’re gonna have these forms all ready to go. Whereas the scrappy startup might not really even have had any of these conversate. You know, like before, like, it’s the first time I’m doing any of this stuff, right? And so they don’t have that, you know, the, the deep understanding of what’s going on and all these processes. And so if they don’t have a VPAT, or if it’s like a really brand new like, hey, this was lunch yesterday, and you’re like, well, is your and you can go sometimes I sent one to you, Tim and I was like, Well, is this accessible? And they say yeah, it’s accessible, right? Like on their website, or like hits accessibility needs and no other information about it. It’s like, Well, okay, you need to get into a lot of depth about what that actually means. Because just saying you’re accessible or saying that you’re, you know, saying that you have whatever things going on, like is that the same thing as just saying, Yes, we have it as compared to here, all the documentations. And I understand what those things mean on the back end, right.

Tim Van Norman 24:35
And for all of these things, as much as we have things like the stack, where we’ve got an agreement with California Community Colleges foundation where we can purchase things, they don’t keep track of these. They keep track of the contract, but not the accessibility part. Nobody does. So it’s not like we have just a single source where we can all go to and go, Oh, everybody else has said, okay, so yes, we even have to look when it comes to those things. So just understand this gets to be a lot bigger. Unfortunately, that, from my perspective, that’s one of the bigger hang ups that I get, which is why I wanted to spend a little bit of time on this, yes, the contract and all that stuff, that’s all important. Other people deal with that. And that’s going to be like lawyer level. That’s so far above me. You know, I hand it off, and I move on. But when it comes to accessibility, I’m also the person who’s got to help you figure out and wants to help you figure out how to make your class accessible and available to your students. So this affects me too. So

Brent Warner 25:47
let’s say it’s, it turns out, the security looks good, the FERPA is clear. They’ve done the V Pat. You know, like, everything’s got the accessibility is in place. It looks like we’re good. We’re we signed the contract, and we’re ready to go. Okay, so that means it’s going to be available to meet tomorrow, right?

Tim Van Norman 26:09
That actually, the the neat part is it depends on the vendor. Right? So once everything is signed, some vendors say, oh, send us the PIO. And, and our reply email contains the information you need to get started. Some of them say, Thank you, as soon as we get paid, we’ll send it to you. It really depends on the vendor, a lot of the vendors, once you can prove that it’s through the process, because part of the process actually is them signing things to once the invoicing is done, once all of the different parts are done, many of them will, will respond very quickly. So it No, it’s not next day, because also remember, once we get it, then it has to be installed.

Brent Warner 26:58
That’s That’s what I was getting to right. So the there’s an installation process here. Right? Right.

Tim Van Norman 27:03
So a lot of times when I’m requesting the contracts, I actually request installation information to so that when the time comes, I maybe I don’t know exactly what to do. But I know exactly who to email and say, Hey, here’s our stuff. When can we get started. And again, many vendors will, will hand that to me quickly. And it all depends. Sometimes if I can have something up and running in a day or two in Canvas, sometimes we get into it. And there’s been times when it’s taken me a month to get something installed, because because of whatever it that it didn’t work. So it all depends. That becomes the technical side. And trust me, we’re not trying to hold back, we’re not trying to hold you back from accomplishing what you need to do. It’s a matter of sometimes it’s just timing. Well, first week of classes is a horrible time to try to install something,

Brent Warner 28:07
I know that you’ve in the past, like you have wanted to sandbox something before it be like so you want to test it and see like, Hey, you’re the one who’s requesting this, but like, let’s test it out inside of here to make sure that it works before because I you know you as the teacher need to interact with it and show me that it’s going okay, so So maybe your departments all waiting for something, but you’re like the one person is going to be the the person who’s able to test it out for a week or two or however long to make sure that it’s going to be okay. That could be part of the process. I know, Tim, every school is going to be different. But also, I think in the past, sometimes you have kind of bundled releases together. So it’s like, Hey, I’ve got we’ve got three or four things that are coming out. Let’s get them all to, you know, basically on this week. And so now I can announce that these things are all available instead of like, oh, today’s Tuesday and something else came out. I’m gonna send another email on the Thursday that something else comes out, right. And so sometimes that comes together as a as a whole too. Well,

Tim Van Norman 29:01
so that’s exactly what I make it look like. The reality is that most likely the instructor that was involved in each one got advanced notice, right. And I’ve waited to make sure that number one, I can announce it all at the same time, just because I don’t want to send a whole bunch of an individual, but also because I want to make sure it’s working. Because we all know we’ve all seen cases where all of a sudden, something stops working, when we’ve installed something new. If you’ve never had that happen, you obviously don’t have a Mac nor do you have a Windows computer. Because when you get updates, sometimes that happens just simply with updates. It has nothing to do with the rest of what we’re talking about. But just all the sudden in the middle of an update stops working. Okay, we try to identify that before we roll it out to 500 people to use

Brent Warner 29:56
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so then we find li get it right. And, you know, at that point, most people are typically happy. But there might need to be like renewal processes or anything else like that to fairly straightforward, a lot easier to get renewals, I find that once we’re once the system is in place, it’s fairly easy to keep it going. But sometimes you have to you as the teacher have to justify that it’s being used, right. And so I’ve definitely had times in the past where our Dean has come and said, Hey, we’re Tim, you’ve come along and said, Hey, like, I see, there’s not much usage on this thing, or we’re paying X amount of dollars for it, is it something that we still want to have going? And so again, that conversation, and sometimes it’s like, there’s one teacher who’s really using it, but you kind of have to have that conversation with them and be like, hey, nobody else is using this upgrade, we just can’t afford to kind of keep it going just for the one use case.

Tim Van Norman 30:50
And sometimes it we can shut it down to one or two licenses. Yeah. But it’s figuring that gets to be the creative part. But I will say this, if you request it understand, when it comes to renewal, we’re coming back to you to ask about it. So if you request it, and you decide you don’t want to use it. Let us know who else is if you find out or something like that, because we’ve had cases where we came back to somebody who requested it. They’re like, you know, it’s not working for me, I stopped using it. I used it for one class, and it didn’t work out didn’t do what I wanted it to do. We’re like, okay, great, then we’re going to cancel it. And somebody else goes, Wait, how come you cancelled my product? I’ve been using it and and we get other people that say it? If we don’t know? You know, we don’t know. And so a lot of these tools don’t give us access to who’s using them. Other tools will lie to us. Okay, they will tell us, you got 3000 students using our product? And you’re like, really? And oh, great. Can you send me a spreadsheet so that I can you know, check it out and make sure. And oh, well, the reality is we can’t do that.

Brent Warner 32:10
You’ve got 20,000 students using it, you go, Oh, we have 10,000 students on our campus. How did you pull that?

Tim Van Norman 32:16
Exactly, No. And, and so it’s it’s different things like that that happen. And so we, you know, we want to be good stewards of the money. We want to be supportive. But in the end, we can’t. We can’t just nobody has unlimited funds. Right, right. So we want to make sure that we’re spending money appropriately, and stuff like that.

Brent Warner 32:40
So well. And also, I mean, you’ll be hearing from me soon, because there’s some products that we use that are basically now don’t need to be there because AI can generate some of the replacements for them right? Pretty quickly, or there’s only a couple people using it. So let’s just do it through chat GPT instead, right. And so these kinds of conversations are going to be part of the reality too, is that you go through cycles, and that’s fine. And then and then that money can be better used for the next thing that really is innovative or whatever else is going on.

Tim Van Norman 33:09
So yeah. Cool. All right.

Brent Warner 33:13
Well, I think that’s that covers. Is there any anything else that we missed?

Tim Van Norman 33:17
I think we’re good, Cool. Any questions? Obviously, people can get a hold of get a hold of us.

Brent Warner 33:21
Yeah. And reach out. You know, like I said, it’s not always a transparent process. So make sure you know and start talking to the people regularly on your campuses. Because that’s really how you start getting that going and building. That’s why it sometimes takes time.

Tim Van Norman 33:40
Thank you for listening today. In this episode, we took a look at what is required to purchase software. For more information about the show, please visit our website at the higher ed tech podcast.com. There you’ll find our podcasts and links to the information we’ve covered.

Brent Warner 33:54
As always, we do want your feedback. So please go to the higher ed tech podcast.com and let us know your thoughts. If you have ideas for future shows. There’s a link on that page where you can give us your topic ideas for everyone at

Tim Van Norman 34:05
IVC. That’s listening. If you need help with technology questions, please contact IVC tech support. If you have questions about technology in your classroom, please stop by the IVC Training Center in a 322 or contact me Tim Van Norman AT T van norman@ivc.edu. And

Brent Warner 34:21
if you want to reach out to me about the show, you can find me on LinkedIn at Brent G Warner.

Tim Van Norman 34:26
I’m Tim Van Norman,

Brent Warner 34:27
and I’m Brent Warner and we hope this episode has helped you on the road from possibility to actuality.