Brent Warner
This is the Higher EdTech Podcast season two, episode eight, automatic translation and transcription and camera on requirements for students.

Tim Van Norman
Welcome to today’s higher ed tech podcast. I’m Tim VanNorman, the instructional technologist here at Irvine Valley College.

Brent Warner
And I’m Brent Warner, professor of ESL here at IBC. We both enjoy integrating technology into the classroom, which is what this show is all about.

Tim Van Norman
Welcome. We’re glad you’re here with us. So you might sound a little bit different today. I got a new microphone.

Brent Warner
Congratulations, you’ve upgraded. So

Tim Van Norman
I’ve upgraded we’ve tried – I’ve tried about five different microphones in the months since we went on COVID. Because that’s the last time you and I’ve been able to sit down together in a – in a room and record. And so yeah, this one actually, I’m using the same microphone you are now.

Brent Warner
Yeah, well, so it goes back to our purchasing conversation about like, you’re taking the steps all the way up to the thing. And I’m just like, just get the good one at this.

Tim Van Norman
That’s true. And by the way, I’m using some of the other ones for other things. Yeah. So

Brent Warner
You’ve got a whole like collection of microphones now ready to ready to take over the world?

Tim Van Norman
Well, yeah, well, this one fails at least.

Brent Warner
Yeah, you sound good. So I’m glad we’re kind of you sound you sound like you actually really sound real life. So sometimes a little tinny before and things like that. So good. Awesome. So today, we’re going to be talking about a couple things, automatic transcriptions and translations. And I think, and then cameras, so let’s, let’s jump into it.

Tim Van Norman
So this is the topic, we’re going to start with the automatic translation and transcription. This is a topic that has come up a lot here at Irvine Valley College, and in a lot of other places as well. I’m on several different calls each month, that have to do with captioning and these types of services, whether it’s automatic or not. And we wanted to bring this up, because like I said, this is a big deal, especially as we’re online. But also I want to think about long term as well, because this doesn’t change the need doesn’t change just because we come back on campus.

Brent Warner
Right. So So Tim, I know we’ve been kind of dealing with a lot I’ve been playing with otter, I mean, we we’ve got several different ones I think we can talk about but but otter.ai is one that you introduced me to, I want to say around winter of last year, probably the first time you started talking about it maybe or maybe winter of this year,

Tim Van Norman
it’s been a few months. Yeah.

So otter is a transcription service and a transcription service, right. So you talk and it transcribes what you’re doing. You can also upload audio files into it, and then it will, it will isolate out the voices. So it will say hey, this is Brent talking. This is Tim talking this is Brent talking, this is Tim talking and it does a pretty good job of it because I now we’re trying to put the transcripts of every episode up online. And that’s what I run it through in order for it to kind of you know, I’m not sitting down and typing every single word. But but it’s it’s been pretty good. It recognizes who you are. It recognizes who I am. It recognizes guests when we’ve had guests on so. So I’ve been pretty happy with it in that basic sense. But I know there’s a lot more to it than just throwing an mp3 into it and having it transcribed the audio or transcribed either your audio or your video, but there’s there are more features to it. What are some of the things that you like about it?

So I look at otters three different ways. One is it does have that capability you were talking about where you can upload to it and get a transcript out of it. You actually get a caption file. If you’re if you upload like a video. You can get the SRT or VTT caption file that you can fix. It’s odd it is AI. So it is not a person doing it. So it’s going to have problems the first time I used it. I said the word proctorio which is a software package that we use here. It’s not a word, so I didn’t expect it to get it right. And it came up with some proc and then borea was and it was two words, not a big deal. Two months later I used it again I said the word and it came up capitalize the P because it’s the name of a product and spelled it exactly correctly. So it is AI it’s they’re doing a lot to try To upgrade and get you to under get their system to understand it, and they even have some free capabilities as well.

Brent Warner
So actively upgrading every every moment, every time you make adjustments to the script, when you go in and change it, then it recognizes that and says, hey, maybe the next time you say it, this is what you’re trying to say.

Tim Van Norman
Plus, you have the ability to put in words and stuff that you use a lot. And so it will recognize it better. So it’s a really nice system, they have a free level they have for education, they have, like $50, a year, $60 a year, something like that, that gives you 6000 minutes a month of this service. So that’s a lot of talking that way, I don’t come anywhere near that. But and they do a very good job of doing it. And in fact, they’re the company that zoom uses for if you record a video to the cloud, and it gets transcribed, that’s the company that they use that same company, they got a lot of systems, a lot of data coming in every day. The second thing is, if you buy a license, you can actually turn it on and have it transcribe live while you’re meeting in zoom. So like right now, you have it turned on in your zoom meeting. Brent, right. And so I can click and I can actually see the transcript live, which is a really cool feature, which by the way, they’re turning on in all zoom accounts are having available in all zoom accounts in January is the announcement. So we’ll see if that actually happens. That is not part of IBC, that is zoom, that’s doing that. So that would be that’ll be a really cool thing. And then the third is that you can do note taking, so you can go and have it on your laptop, and be sitting in a meeting. And your laptop records, the meeting gives you the transcript of what’s being said, and you can take notes beside it live. And so you could actually have a live note of everything that was going on in your meeting, if you want. So those three things built into otter, I think those are really cool things, and pretty decent price for at least individuals.

Brent Warner
Yeah, I’m looking at the live transcript, you know, as it’s going right now, as we’re talking, and I’m kind of saying Oh, yeah, it’s sitting that’s like kind of missing that, when we talk over each other a little bit, it’s, it gets a little bit confused, which is totally fair, because I think people do the same. But yeah, it’s been a very cool system, and I’m quite happy with with what otter has had to offer. So I’m looking forward to seeing how they kind of grow more of that. And then one of the cool things that you can do is you can send a link to that to your phone. So we were talking about this in a previous meeting, Tim, send the link to the live stream to your phone have that have the transcript or you know, the live AI transcription going on on your phone while you’re listening to, you know, the meeting or while you’re doing you know, building things in class or whatever else it is that you’re doing. So for students that could be also very valuable.

Tim Van Norman
Yes, around and you can export it, there’s all kinds of stuff. But we’re not trying to trying to sell otter, what we’re trying to talk about is options that people have. Yeah, quickly and what what is available so that you can then look at what you’re interested in. So the next one we wanted to talk about is Hey, our friend Google.

Brent Warner
Yeah, I think this one’s still for me the go to one if we’re talking about class, right? Like if we’re saying, hey, in class, I want my students to see what I’m doing or what I’m talking about Google Slides, drop it right in, you can turn on the closed captionings. And then everybody can watch at the bottom of the screen what you’re talking about. Now, we’ve talked about this in the past, this is not a new feature from Google. But it’s very useful. And I don’t think a lot of people take advantage of it as much. I even had a techie person kind of talk to me the other day, and they’re like, Hey, I wanted to try and turn this on in my class. I’m doing live classes. And I couldn’t get it on. And I was like, this is like a techie person. I’m like, Well, are you on Chrome? And they’re like, oh, there’s the problem, right? I wasn’t using Chrome, I was using something else. And so so sometimes kind of recognizing just even the little things or giving it a shot and trying it but once you turn this on, if you’re doing a slideshow, especially in zoom, it’s great. Just turn it on, have the option for you know, the the transcription down there at the bottom.

Tim Van Norman
And you can also put the transcription at the top. So in fact, what that’s one of the things that I recommend is put that transcript at the top and the reason is because if you record and you have it captioned later, the captions automatically going to go at the bottom. So you don’t want text on text.

Brent Warner
Good point. Good point.

Tim Van Norman
So I By the way, every lesson I’ve learned has either been somebody told me or I’ve learned it the hard way. There’s tears. I’d rather I’d rather have you learned from my experience.

Brent Warner
There’s another good reason for that too, though, and I I hadn’t thought about it. But now that you’re mentioning it, right now, I’m having a problem with zoom on my Mac. And so I’m also using my iPad. And on the iPad at the bottom of the screen, if you want to see who’s in the room, you bring up the strip of participants who’s on the bottom of the screen. And that covers just a section of the bottom of your shared screen. But that would be enough to cover the the transcripts from Google Slides, too. So if they’re up at the top, then that wouldn’t get in the way either. So that’s another another reason for it.

Tim Van Norman
Right? Right. So we also wanted to talk about translation. So there’s a lot of stuff going on. And most people know that you can have, you’ve gone to a webpage accidentally, and it’s in Chinese or Japanese, especially for those of us who speak English. And I can’t read Chinese or Japanese, just not going to work for me. But my screen comes up automatically and says, Hey, do you want to translate it? So there’s a lot of these translation services? In all of these cases, we’re talking about automated services. They are not 100%?

Brent Warner
Nope, certainly not. Period. Don’t,

Tim Van Norman
don’t assume that they are. We’re not talking about things that are section 508 compliant, if that’s what you’re talking about. YouTube, same thing, it’s not so understand that it’s Google Translate, that we’re talking in this particular case, it’s good,

Brent Warner
it is good.

Tim Van Norman
I’ve been really surprised what you know, like, I’m more familiar with Spanish. So if I look at Spanish to English translation, I’m surprised at how good it really can be.

Brent Warner
Yeah. And I would also say that the cleaner the language, the the original language, so like, you know, the more quote unquote professional or standard or whatever it is, the less Slaney that it is, then the better it is translating clearly across, you know, that could have its pluses and minuses. But when we’re talking about Google Translate, there’s an app on the phone. Tim, have you played with the phone Apple recently?

Tim Van Norman
I haven’t. It’s privacy. I’ve seen ads on it. But it looks marvelous. Yeah,

Brent Warner
it’s pretty cool. The app on the phone is has all these different functions on it. And kind of speaking of, of Japanese and Chinese, you can do all sorts of different ways. So like with, you know, my second language is Japanese. And so when you do that, the kanji the characters, you can actually write the characters in by hand. And so you can you can write them in on the bottom of the screen, and then it kind of translates them in and you can say, Oh, this is what it means this is water or whatever it is, right. But the the one that we’re talking about, which is great is it has a conversation option. So you can click a button on two sides, it’ll say the Japanese side and the English side, and then you the two of you can talk and that person could speak in Japanese, and the English comes up, and then you pick up the English button and you speak in English. And then the Japanese comes up, and it just goes back and forth. And you can even have a full conversation that way. So it’s it’s pretty amazing to see what they’ve been able to come with up with. In the future, I’ll probably be talking about the detriment to ESL. But for now, it’s it’s amazing technology, and really, really cool. Which kind of leads into the last one that we wanted to talk about, which is Microsoft Translator. Now this one who have you looked at it?

Tim Van Norman
Only a little bit, but it Okay, wow, it looks like it’s even better than Google Translate, right? It’s

Brent Warner
better than Google it is, you know, I am normally a Google fan and all of those things, but I there is no denying that the Microsoft Translator is better than Google. So you can do this one with a, I believe it’s translate translate.microsoft.com we’ll get the links in there. But basically, you can log into a kind of like a chatroom. And then you can say, Hey, this is my language. And and each person in there just says this is what their languages so if I say hey, my language is English. And my student says their language is Japanese and other students as their language is Vietnamese, then they just go in and you all just have a conversation in your own language and automatically translates it to everybody else in the room with with whatever language they’re looking at it on in their screen. Wow, it is unbelievable. And it’s like I mean, can that kite type of functionality is so powerful, so beyond the classroom, I mean, you can you can imagine, like, all sorts of uses for this and international business and all sorts of things like that, but but you can have a little bit of, you know, like you said it’s not gonna be perfect translation. I did play with it with a Japanese I use fairly simple Japanese. But it did a good job of like how those types of phrases in Japanese would normally be returned back to you in English, because it’s like, hey, that’s not really an expression that we exactly say in English. But here’s kind of how you might say it back. And so I every time I look at that, every time I log into it, it’s like who this is, this is going to be something else. And I just don’t think people are paying attention to it. But it’s, it’s mind blowing how powerful that can be. And so once something like that gets integrated into, I think it already is integrated into PowerPoint, because I think with PowerPoint, you can hold up your phone, and you can scan. So if you’re doing a live PowerPoint presentation, I believe. And I hope I’m not making this up. But I believe that students could scan the code, and they could look at the translation coming in from whatever you’re saying into their language on their phone, as they’re sitting in the actual classroom with you.

Tim Van Norman
Wow, that’s something I have not heard about. But I will definitely be looking at because that is amazing. Yeah. So

Brent Warner
I mean, I just I think people should just kind of sit and reflect on what that could mean for their teaching and for who they’re teaching and what type of ideas are trying to get across. I mean, essentially, this is the babelfish, right? Like, if you read if your Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, it’s like, this is just all putting the words right in from everybody all at the same time. And so tons and tons of tons of potential. And I am really interested to see where this ends up going.

Tim Van Norman
Yeah, and the beautiful part on all of these is the more they get used, the better they will get. That’s right,

Brent Warner
yeah. Because people go in. And they say, that’s not exactly what I’ve said, they make the little adjustments, and then the computer recognizes it and fixes that for the future every time. So, and millions and millions of times over. Right?

Tim Van Norman
Exactly. Plus, the more you use it, the more you pay attention. And so you slow down in your speaking you don’t slur as much, you you enunciate better. And which makes you a better speaker.

Brent Warner
So you knew.

Tim Van Norman
Exactly. So this is amazing.

Brent Warner
Yeah. So there are tons of good options out there. And many of these are high. I don’t want to say in terms of accessibility, but easy to access for faculty members out there. Like I said, some of these are free Google, some of them are a little bit paid but but worth looking into and kind of thinking about the implications of how this technology can better your class.

Tim Van Norman
So Zippy tip for today, we’re talking a lot being online, we’re talking about video and stuff like that. So if you want to just record short 15 minute videos, you don’t care if there’s a little watermark in the lower left hand corner, you can go to screencast o Matic sign up for a free account. And you can record on a Mac, Windows or even Chromebook, they have the ability to record on Chromebook, it’s really nice, really quick, easy way of recording videos. And there’s more stuff you can do too, but just nice and quick and easy.

Brent Warner
Alright, so Tim, we’re gonna talk a little bit about camera requirements. This is a contentious topic that goes on and on we’ve we’ve mentioned it in the past too. It’s it’s not a brand new topic, but But recently, a few weeks ago, a an actual legal opinion came out from the California Community Colleges, lawyers, about what to do about the camera on requirements. There are a lot of teachers out there pushing for a lot, a lot of advocate teachers saying, hey, let’s not have cameras on I think Berkeley complete UC Berkeley I think completely said Hey, no requirement you cannot have four scammers on. But the the basic, the basic opinion and we can talk a little bit about some of the details and potential exceptions from the this is a legal opinion. Right. So this is not a law, but this is a legal opinion from the California Community Colleges lawyers is that one there is no Express prohibition against requiring students to have the cameras on so. So if you’re saying Hey, you got to have the cameras on there legally, there’s nothing they’re saying that you can’t say that. However, and this is a quote, an indiscriminate cameras on requirements, risks, violation of student privacy rights under the California Constitution, and potentially implicates other federal and state privacy and civil rights laws. So that’s the that’s kind of the way of them saying Hold your horses. Don’t be so gung ho to have your cameras on because yes There’s no law saying that you can’t do this. But there are a lot of laws that are out there to protect student privacy. And you really, really, really want to be aware of those. Because those lawsuits theoretically could come will come tumbling in, you know, Fast and Furious.

Tim Van Norman
And to that, to that point, we also want to make sure that everybody understands, we’re talking about the camera on requirement, not saying to your students, oh, please don’t turn your cameras on. But it’s the the concept of saying to your students, you must have your camera on while we are during this lecture on zoom, or however you’re doing it, it’s the must, that we’re talking about, not the option, right. And also, we’re not talking about, and that’s one of the things that got pointed out in this, if there is a specific instructional reason to have the cameras on, then yes, you can require the cameras to be on that instructional reason can be, this is a pronunciation class where I need to see your lips. Okay, so at least for that part of the class, it may be required to have cameras on and that’s completely legal students know about it ahead of time, all of those things, there’s no prohibition or even recommendation that you can’t do that. Right. Um,

Brent Warner
so the other.

Tim Van Norman
So the other part is things like test taking, you may use zoom for proctoring, the test, you may use proctoring software, that you might require the students to have a camera on for that, again, it’s they know about it ahead of time. And the other part to the requirement is there isn’t instructional purpose for it. So ignoring those two parts, because I want to make sure that we have a good discussion, but and understand that we’re not coming down and saying you must and you cannot. But this is a really heavy discussion. All over the place, right now.

Brent Warner
It’s emotional for people to right, like, it’s like you, I really feel for these students that are struggling. I mean, I feel for the teachers, of course, and but, but I also feel for the students who are really struggling, and people are feeling like, there are all sorts of different implications being recorded on camera than it is being face to face. Right. And this is why there was a major pushback, if you remember the Google Glass thing, right? Like people just walking around with cameras on their faces, there is a major major pushback, because it’s like, Wait a second, what are you doing with a recording of me? You know, like you, that’s not cool, essentially. And so. And then students are, there’s bullying issues, like, hey, people are taking a picture of me and then making a meme out of like, just like the half second that my, my nose was turned up, or whatever it is, right? Like all these terrible things that can that can be, you know, really hard for especially college students that are like trying to find their place, find their footing, establishing their identity, all of you know these types of things. So it is really, really hard. And at the same time I totally get when a teacher says, I want to know who my student is, I want to be able to see them. I Why am I teaching to a black screen of nothing? Right? Is anyone out there listening to me? I highly sympathize with that as well. And I know that I always feel deflated when the majority of my class has their cameras off. Right? I don’t think that it’s a it’s about me personally as a teacher, but it does feel deflating, and it does feel kind of demoralizing as a teacher because it’s kind of the digital equivalent of turning your back to me. Right. Like, like, it’s, it’s like, you’re not, you’re not willing to look at me, you’re not willing to show me your face. And and so, and I know, that’s, that’s something that I kind of need to process for myself. But, you know, I think it’s also fair to say that that’s what I feel too. And so it’s really, really tricky. As you mentioned, things like pronunciation. Great. Okay, have it on. Things like we’ve talked about this one a lot dance, right? Yeah. I mean, how are you gonna type in your dance moves? Right? swing your foot to the left, and then you know, whatever it is. So some of those are issues. But there are also ways I think, a lot of this issue here, Tim is not the really the way that I run my class, but around things like lecture classes, right? where it’s like, I’m just gonna give a lecture. Okay? Do they need to have cameras on if they’re just listening to you talk and share all of those things? less so. And also. I mean, the truth is, in my in my thinking, if you’re just running a lecture, you don’t need to even be synchronous. You should be asynchronous, because it’s just you talking and and, you know, running for that. But we we’ve we’ve had the synchronous and asynchronous conversation before. But you know, it is something to consider and there are other ways to check in on students than just than just being able to see their faces. So I’ve got a list of some of these, I thought we’d look through them. And then if you have any comments on them, we can kind of follow up. So one, this is at the bottom of the of the memo of the memorandum. So it said, only only have cameras on to the extent where necessary, so so teachers can say, hey, for the next five minutes, please have your cameras on because I just want to check a few couple things, right, so on and off is is an option there. It says to clearly identify the essential nature of video for instruction and considers students privacy or technical options and create a confidential opt out mechanism. I think when students know why you want the camera on, it makes more of a difference to them. Right? It helps them kind of see, okay, that I get why you would want that on, right, if it’s just like you just have to have your camera on because I don’t trust you that, you know, that creates its own set of problems. So continuing encourage faculty to consider an alternative to video participation, such as audio participation, so hey, can you turn on your audio? Can you just shout out, let me know that you’re, you know,

Tim Van Norman
I just want to hear you talking about this topic a little bit. And the same thing to that is you can have people raise their hands, and then call on them, and then they can speak. So it does, it has that same effect that you were talking about, you still have that interaction, but maybe they’re not on camera.

Brent Warner
Yeah. And give yourself a little time to practice with the class using those functions like the raise hand and the the coffee function and the clap function and all of those things. Because once students recognize them, they are more prone to using them right. Even when I went through courses like that, I was like, Okay, once I use them, then then I’m like trying to show that I’m involved, and that helps me. But if you don’t take the time, or if you kind of give up after just like five minutes of trying it. And then you have a whole semester of thinking that students are not necessarily participating when they’re really they’re paying attention and trying to get work done. Further on, can encourage the use of electronic video backgrounds, so the virtual backgrounds, so hey, if you are, you know, a lot of students are dealing with housing issues, or whatever, whatever is going on. And they don’t want people to see where they live or what situation they’re in, Hey, can you turn on some sort of just even if just a black virtual background, right? Like, I can’t see anything else behind you. But just something to help me, you know, if that’s the issue, then you can encourage that. And then also, you know, you can also have like, times when you actually encourage students to have their cameras off, right? Hey, you guys, let’s Everybody just have the cameras off. Let’s just talk to each other. And and let’s, let’s just have this real conversation instead of needing to be seen all the time. And then of course, as you mentioned, to chat function really helps out a lot too.

Tim Van Norman
So as the teacher, understand that, if you’ve got some students with their video on some students with a video off, and it’s, it’s bothering you, okay. And I completely understand this, when I’m presenting and stuff, I really like to at least have some visual feedback. But you have an option down at the bottom of your screen, at least when you’re not in shared screen mode. In the spot where you can turn off the video, you have an option of going into video settings, under the video settings, there’s an option for hide non participant non video participants. So what that will do is that will first of all only have those people with video on in front of you. Secondly, it will make all of them larger. So you can actually see them, instead of having a whole bunch of really tiny pictures, you know, 30 really tiny pictures on your screen now you’ve got 15 that are actually twice as big. So you

Brent Warner
feel like you’re teaching to that group of people.

Tim Van Norman
So you actually you get that visual feedback that you are wanting, and nobody’s excluded. As soon as they turn their camera on there, they pop up. As soon as they turn the camera off, they pop away. And this is for you. This doesn’t affect the students or anything like that. They can do that themselves. But it’s things like that, that can really help you get over this hump of figuring out what’s going to be right and work well for you.

Brent Warner
I really like that one too. And that’s great. Because, yeah, because that kind of helps with the emotional needs of the teacher, right? But it’s not, it’s not, it’s not excluding anyone else, it is giving them the chance. I have not turned that feature on I might try that after in my next class because I’m interested. I have in my in one of my classes, you know, like six or seven that kind of keep it off most of the time and it’s just enough to like fill up a little chunk of the screen and I’m interested to see how that works. So I’ll definitely be trying that

Tim Van Norman
but Then the other thing that is brand new if you’re if your resume is updated, you can drag and drop people around your screen.

Brent Warner
I do like that feature.

Tim Van Norman
Yeah. And I think we mentioned this, I think you mentioned this, two or three episodes ago, that there was a new zoom feature, it’s that has been wonderful. Drag the people who are on camera up to the top of your screen. Only thing I don’t like about that is if somebody who’s not typically and who’s not at the top of the screen comes on camera, I might not see them. Oh, yeah. So just be careful with that. But understand that that is a really nice feature as well.

Brent Warner
Yeah. And the combination with being able to change the grid number. I think we talked about that too recently that they changed it. I mean, it’s quite small, but you can have seven by seven grids and 49 students, or five by five grids of 25 students, right. And so either the end, depending on what computer you’re using, but but that can also make it you know, help you see things in different ways as well. Right? All right, well, there’s a lot, this conversation is nowhere near over. So we’ll be interested. I mean, again, this is a legal opinion, and some tips on how to kind of deal with it, depending on what you’re trying to do. I you know, if you don’t need to have the cameras on, you can definitely encourage students to have them off and kind of show some some just empathy towards their situation. I think that’s a great thing to do, as well. But yeah, we’ll keep talking about this as changes happen. And as we keep moving forward.

Tim Van Norman
As we’ve been announcing, here at IVC. Our OTF has office hours, Brent is doing office hours on Tuesday, at three and Cheryl, Fridays at 11. I’m doing off open office hours on Wednesdays from two to three. Unfortunately, sometimes they have to get cancelled for other things. But for the most part, I’m I’m there. It has been great. Even if I have two or three people stopped by everybody comments on how great it is. So please stop by See, see different emails and stuff that we’ve got out there for information. Thank you for listening today. In this episode, we talked about automatic translation and transcription, and camera on requirements. For more information about this show, please visit our website, the higher ed tech podcast.com. There you will find our podcasts and links to the information we’ve covered.

Brent Warner
And as always, we do want your feedback, please go to the higher tech podcast.com and let us know your thoughts. And of course if you have ideas for future shows, there’s a link on that page or you can give us some of your topic ideas.

Tim Van Norman
For everyone at IBC that’s listening. If you need help with technology questions, please contact IBC technical support at 949-451-5696 or by emailing IVC tech@ivc.edu. You have questions about technology in your classroom please contact me Tim van Norman at t van Norman VA n and o r ma n@ivc.edu.

Brent Warner
And if you want to reach out to me about the show, you can find me on Twitter or Instagram at Brent G Warner.

Tim Van Norman
I’m Tim Van Norman,

Brent Warner
and I’m Brent Warner. And we hope this episode has helped you on the road from possibility to actuality Have a good one, everybody