Brent Warner 0:01
This is the HigherEdTech Podcast Season Three, Episode 19: Alternatives to Proctored Exams.

Tim Van Norman 0:20
Welcome to today’s HigherEdTech Podcast. I am Tim Van Norman, the instructional technologist here at Irvine Valley College.

Brent Warner 0:27
And I’m Brent Warner professor of ESL here at IVC. We both enjoy integrating technology into the classroom, which is what this show is all about.

Tim Van Norman 0:35
Welcome. We’re glad you’re here with us. So anything new?

Brent Warner 0:41
Keepin’ busy. We’re, we’re one show away from our summer vacation. And we’re gonna we’re gonna be pausing the show during summer, right. And the season will end episode 20. So it’s going to be huge, the most massive show ever for episode 20…. We haven’t sorted that out yet, but I’m sure it’ll be amazing. But yeah, that’s about it. Just you know, we’re, we’re still here kind of prepping for the finals. And I think that’s kind of why I hope that today is a good time to talk about our topic, which is, you know, a lot of teachers are sitting there going, Well, I’m hearing these ideas that I shouldn’t, you know, that like, there are problems with proctored things. I’ve read these articles about Proctorio. Maybe I don’t want to use it, but I don’t know what to do, right. And so today, we’re going to jump in and talk a little bit about maybe some things to think about and some ways to plan out your class possibly, to do something different than a traditional, I mean, well, not traditional as semi new proctored the online, proctored exams, but also, even in class, proctored exams, as well. So Tim, if you’re ready, we can jump right over it. Okay, so we kind of split this up into two parts here. One was about considerations before holding an exam. And then in the second part later, we’ll talk about some actual alternatives themselves. So I think one of the biggest things here, Tim, and I’m sure you hear this a lot from people is like that. And this is I’m guilty of this too, right? It’s like you get used to your pattern of doing things, hey, I have this quiz that I did last year, or I did I have this exam from two years ago, and I’m just gonna reuse it. And I’m busy, I’m tired. These things so short, right? Why not? And it worked fine before. But it is worth taking the time to sit and think, you know, I mean, this is this is just generally good pedagogy is like, figuring out what you’re trying to get out of the students for the exam itself, right?

Tim Van Norman 2:52
Along those lines, a lot of times we’re thinking, Oh, that’s what outcomes are all about? Oh, that’s what, whatever it is. That’s true. So think about how would you actually measure that the students have accomplished what that class is looking to accomplish? So in writing, a lot of times, it’s Oh, you need to write three essays or five essays or whatever that is, okay. It’s about writing. But in other classes, it can be done in different ways. And that’s what we’re talking about here is, let’s think about what you want to accomplish, and why you want to accomplish it in this manner, so part of this comes up, and we’re going to touch on this really, really quick part of this comes up because a lot of times people will go, Well, my students didn’t learn anything all semester. All they did was was sit there and they studied for the test, and they got it right. And then I asked them later, and they don’t know what I’m talking about. Another one is the fear of people cheating. And, and that happens. But let’s think about what it is you’re wanting to accomplish. And maybe there’s ways some alternatives that can assuage some of those fears, and help the students learn at the same time.

Brent Warner 4:15
Yeah, so we’ve had a list of pretty good questions from Indiana University Bloomington. And I thought, you know, some of these are really worth just sitting down and thinking about and so, you know, we can we can just talk about these and make sure we’re kind of clear on them. But the first one is, do you want to assess your students acquisition of specific content knowledge or their ability to apply that knowledge to new situations, or possibly both? Right. So Tim, we were talking about this a little bit pre show, right? It’s like, memorization versus application. Right? And so what might be a case where we would want students to memorize just Get up memorize these facts.

Tim Van Norman 5:02
So I like to think about some of the sciences. And specifically like biology, if a student is going to become some something in the medical field, and they don’t know what an Ola is, or a cranium or a, you know, you name the body part, that could be a huge problem. That’s memorization, they need to know that specific thing. That said, applying it can be even better. So if you ask what a spiral fracture of an alto would look like, now, they have to know what a spiral fracture is, and and all together, and it’s an application of that concept, right? And so it takes it to that next level of them having to think about and come out with more information.

Brent Warner 5:52
Yeah. And there’s a big argument out there these days that, you know, we don’t need a lot of content knowledge, right, like, sorry, I want to say this in the right way. We don’t need to focus on the memorization of dates and names of things as much as we need to be these days, because we do have access to these information in our phones, right? Or, pretty much most of us have have pretty quick access to all the information in the world, right? But as you’re saying, right, of course, you would never want to be in an ambulance and go, you know, hey, you know, go wrap up his own. Like, what’s an old, you know, like, if you’re, if you’re a paramedic is not saying something like that it doesn’t know those things, of course, but like, you know, also adding in your your addition here, that the application of the knowledge can also prove the specific content, knowledge and the details as well. So again, it’s worth thinking about, I’m sure, there are too many situations for us to know and kind of plan out and understand every one. But as the listener, you listening, you’re gonna know in your field, and you’re gonna say, Well hold on a second, maybe I can find a better way that’s not just about reciting facts or clicking A, B, C, or D. But really going through and figuring out a way to show that that knowledge is useful, hopefully, hopefully, whatever you’re teaching is useful beyond the walls of their classroom, right. So I think that’s —

Tim Van Norman 7:21
And – and in this area, have to remember that there are always are almost always there are facts, there are things that are required for actual memorization. For instance, in language, something I’m horrible at, if you see any of my writing my capitalization on different things is horrible. I keep waiting for a writing instructor to correct my work and send it back to me. You know, because I’d love to see what all I’m doing wrong, because I know I’m making mistakes, comma splices, they’re horrible. So if you don’t know that information, just looking it up isn’t going to solve the problem, right? Often. So. So it’s we’re not saying there’s no need for memorization? In this, we’re not saying that that’s not the case at all. What we’re saying is, think about how you want to make this work, and what would work well for what you’re trying to accomplish.

Brent Warner 8:13
Yeah. So to move on from there. The next one is do you want to assess a product that the students produce? Or the process that they went through to produce it? Or both? I think that’s a great question, right? That’s absolute really want to think about? Because for some of us, like, there are some things where you could go through 95% of a problem or an issue and get it just perfect. And then you make one little mistake, and then it becomes an F, right. Like it becomes a total failure on that. And to me, in that case, I would be saying, hey, probably the process is what I want to look at, right? So if it’s a, you know, if they’re doing an essay, and they’re showing me that they’re able to put these ideas together and get everything going. But I’m certainly not going to say well, one, this is not as good an example for writing but for math, it would be right. So like one final last decimal point in the wrong place gets you a zero and you spent 20 minutes on the super complex problem. I mean, of course, math is hard, like math is a hard science, right? And so you’re like, hey, the answer is either right or wrong. But at the same time, it’s like well, you have a lot of processing skills and you made a mistake and then you get to zero because of this one little you know, one misstep here Yes, it’s wrong…

Tim Van Norman 9:39
Plus VS minus or something. Exactly.

Brent Warner 9:42
Yeah, it’s the final answer is wrong. But you might have shown an amazing process for getting through that, right? And so, so that’s, you know, again, it’s a consideration right so I do get the under the argument in math, like, just the final thing is the right or wrong and if it’s wrong, your your building’s gonna fall down and if Right, people are going to be safe, I totally, totally, totally understand that. And at the same time, that doesn’t mean that one person making one mistake is should be the end of their entire math career, for example, I would hope (laughter)

Tim Van Norman 10:14
Nor feel like it but, but that on both sides of this, it’s what is it that you want to accomplish? In writing, often faculty will have students submit two or three rough drafts before they do a final copy. For a presentation, you might have them submit an idea and then a rough draft and then some research and you know, different parts of it before you actually have that final presentation. That’s looking at the assessing the the process, which is good. In the end, you also will assess their final product that is still even doing the process, you’re going to get to that final product. So, but in that thinking about, what about doing something like that, instead of an exam, that’s a possibility. Often final projects are really good options. And you get much more knowledge from the students and much more application from the students of what you’re looking for. Yeah.

Brent Warner 11:21
And so we’ll talk about some of that in a bit. Let’s, let’s burn through some more of these questions. Again, not about judging, what’s the right answer or the wrong answer. It’s just about like thinking about these questions to see what’s going to really work for assessing your students. So here it says, Do you want to assess any of the following writing ability, speaking skills, creativity, use of information technology, is a visual component to the assessment necessary or desirable, is the ability for students to work in a group and an important part of the the assessment, right? So lots of different ways to approach these things and think about what you’re really looking for all of these kinds of they, they all cycle back to the same thing that you’re talking about your Tim, which is, you know, what is that goal? Right? Like? What are you? What are you trying to get done? So, a couple last quick things to consider here that a lot of people just kind of go on default mode. So number one, is, is it important that the assessment be time constrained? And why? Right? A lot of us at our school we have, you know, two days for final exams, or one day for final exams, or whatever else it is, right? And it’s like, and so teachers say, Well, that’s the day of the final, therefore, the final must be timed inside of the class period that we’re given in there. Right? And it’s like, Well, okay, but why? Like, does that, does that assess their learning? Or does? Or are you assessing their ability to do something inside of a time limit? And which is, what are you assessing out of those? Right? Like, what is your goal here?

Tim Van Norman 12:56
And along those lines, I remember when I was in school, every once in a while, I’d get somebody who would give a final exam, and it was Take Home Final? Sure. And you came in, and you handed it in and stuff like that. That was amazing. Open Book, we used it. But you know what? People tended to actually study better for it. In the end, they got more knowledge out of it.

Brent Warner 13:19
Yeah. So I agree. I remember those classes myself, too. It’s like, oh, I can think about this and process through it. Right. And that ties right into the last one here. Which is, is there a justification for closed book, right? Because for me, you know, to me, I think, you know, you really want to think carefully, and you want to imagine a world where students will have careers but not have access to the information that helps them complete their jobs, right. And we kind of gave a little example, like a paramedic might, you know, it’s like, Hey, you got to do it right now. Right. But, but much, much, much of our work that we work with, you know, we have the time to process, we have the time to get support, we have the time to go on Google and look for help and answers and people do it all the time, all the time. Right. So it’s not like, you know, so I, it’s worth considering whether or not saying, hey, having a closed book is really you showing me these skills versus, you know, showing me the ability to critically think to process these ideas to get through everything, right. So the all these ideas all looped together, I think, Tim but worthwhile questions, for sure.

Tim Van Norman 14:30
And on that last one, also think about, Does the information you’re testing change? Over time? I think about writing a business letter. There’s certain things formats and stuff like that that can adjust based on even what company you work for, when you get out. So what are you trying to accomplish by having them write this business letter or, or asking them questions about the business letter and stuff like that? And will you get to what you need? In a little different way? Does it really need to be closed book versus open book? Sometimes? Absolutely. It’s about closed book, I think of accounting. If you don’t know, debits and credits, without having to look it up, you kind of probably shouldn’t pass that. But on the flip side, there’s a lot of other components that might be handled this way, and GAAP accounting this way, and just rough explanation accounting or something like that. Accounting is a good example, because there’s a lot of hard fast rules that you don’t want to break. Yeah, but but you get the point

Brent Warner 15:42
for sure, for sure. So there’s just different ways to approach and I would challenge, I do want to throw out that last challenge, which is, if you are in a field where you think that it’s always got to be this way, take the time to think about it a little bit more, right. Because there there is almost definitely someone who’s taking another approach to testing in your field, you know, helping students out as well. So all of those things can be just considered. Alright, so So those are some pretty good questions to consider. And then in a bit, we’ll come back with some alternative activities and ways to do things. Alright, Tim, quick Zippy tip, the chrome Share button. Have you ever played with this in the Omni Bar up there at the top of Chrome?

Tim Van Norman 16:27
I hadn’t until you told me about it pre show. And that’s really cool.

Brent Warner 16:31
Yeah. So there’s a little little button there that looks like an arrow pointing up and a little Share button inside of the Omni Bar. If you click on that in Chrome, you’ll see some different ways you can share the page that you’re on. And one of them is a QR code. And so when you click on that QR code, it’ll just bring up a QR code right in Chrome. So if you’re projecting it in front of the class, or if you’re on Zoom, or whatever else it is, and you say, hey, pull out your phone, scan this code, look at it on your phone. You know, you can have endless uses for why you might use a QR code. But if you just want people to be able to quickly access the page that you’re looking at, and you’re displaying. That’s a pretty good way. So the Share button in the Omni Bar on Chrome can get those QR codes going for you.

Tim Van Norman 17:21
So now let’s talk about some alternatives. Some things to think about. Versus a proctored exam. Now, proctored understand, we’re not necessarily talking online, that can be but we are also talking in your classroom. So this is about thinking of other alternatives. Basically, two exams in general, ignoring the word proctored, it’s there too. And this first one, portfolios.

Brent Warner 17:49
Classic,

Tim Van Norman 17:50
I think about that in, in art, you’ve always got a portfolio and what’s your portfolio look like? And, and stuff like that, art is a great place for that. But portfolios show up in a lot of other places, too.

Brent Warner 18:06
All over the place. Yeah, in my field, you know, like, students show their writing and their growth in their writing. And they collect that all together, or they kind of, you know, some teachers who have a kind of thematic class, for example, over the course of the class, they see how a student’s understanding of that, that concept has grown, and they and when it’s all collected together, it can be really satisfying for the student to see from the beginning to the end, and they’re like, Oh, this is what I was doing at the beginning. And now I can do this, right. So even just for the reflection on the student, it can be great. But also, it can be really nice with the portfolios is that, you know, they feel like it’s like all this work. And then they’re like, Oh, I’m actually already done just as you get to the end of the semester. And you’re just done, right, you’ve already kind of shown it, or you have your one final plugin to it. And so, Tim, we didn’t talk about this before, but you know, there’s lots of different ways to do portfolios, right? It could be a straight like collection of Google Docs. But a lot of people now do like, go make a Google Sites, right, go make go make a web page, and you’re gonna have your collection all available on the web page on the internet, right? And so it’s easy to follow along with and you just do it all the time throughout the semester. Any other thoughts on portfolios there?

Tim Van Norman 19:23
I like portfolios, because that part that you just said, it’s throughout the semester. You’re not. It’s not all built up. And now you have to grade this complete work by the student, all in the last week of classes. All right. You got time and it can develop and it shows progression,

Brent Warner 19:44
for sure, for sure. So, next up is reverse tests. Or you might call this like a like a Jeopardy style testing right where you give the answers the teacher provides the answers and the students have to develop questions around it. Um, one of the things that can be really cool about this, Tim is, they might take totally different approaches. And so when you’re reading all of those, or when you’re looking at and evaluating them, then you get to see the creativity of the students. Right. And so you can see oh, like, I wouldn’t have thought of that. But yep, that question does, you know, like, if this is the answer that question lines into it, and or, you know, again, if it’s math, then maybe like, Oh, you took a totally different approach, like, you know, you might put some parameters around it, like us use a formula from the last two chapters to help us show this okay, well, you did it this way. You did it that way. But you all but you all figured out ways to come to this final answer, and that that creativity might build out there a lot.

Tim Van Norman 20:46
Absolutely. Along those lines. It gives you something more creative to look at. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard from faculty, okay, I’ve got to, I’ve got to look evaluates 45 students, 50 questions. And you know, that’s why I go with, with multiple choices, because, you know, I don’t have to do it, yeah, 200 questions just to just to get done with my semester, or 2000 questions to get done with my semester. Things like that can come up and, and when you see something that’s creative, it actually helps you, that keeps you engaged as you’re grading as well. And you

Brent Warner 21:32
could also do a lot fewer to write because you can say, hey, this students showing me in, you know, two or three questions, they’re showing me these different varieties instead of like, 50 different versions of it, right, where it’s like, okay, work through it, work through it, work through it, so. So I think that can also be a fun way to do it. And then there was a connection here to him. So the next one is students, written exams with answers. So they would be responsible to make a quiz around, whatever, you know, whatever you’re doing, so it’s like, Hey, you write the quiz, you write the test. And then and then you give that to me, and I’ll look at it and see if those questions helped me understand the materials that we’re supposed to be doing too.

Tim Van Norman 22:14
And something like that, if you do want to do an exam, have the students submit three questions a piece?

Brent Warner 22:21
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people.

Tim Van Norman 22:24
And in doing that, it’s really hard. So first of all, the students should be able to study very well. Because all the questions are available to all the students if you do it, and like in their discussion or something like that. But also, it’s really hard for somebody just memorize all the answers, because you’re probably going to go in and you’re going to tweak the questions, right? And give it back to them. But it’s a great way to really engage the students and get them to understand that knowledge. And if you’re worried about somebody else taking the exam or or them getting last semester exam off the internet, there you go. It’s not last semesters exam.

Brent Warner 23:03
Yeah, it’s free. And it’s reinforcing this stuff you hopefully have already talked about in class and with your, with your classmates directly, right. So Right. Yeah, so I do like that. Next one,

Tim Van Norman 23:13
Flipgrid. Doing a Flipgrid debate, given argument in the form of a flip growed at you as the teacher to do that, and then have them prepare arguments, for and against, right. It’s a great way to, again, engage them, get them to work on things, some of it can be collaborative, you can have them go play off of each other. It and it goes back. It’s creative. Yeah, you know, I find a lot of times, that’s what makes the difference, make it creative. And by the way, it’s creative for the student and for you, right, so both of you are engaged.

Brent Warner 23:58
And there’s tons of cool stuff you can do with that too. Because if you you could say, for example, Hey, this Flipgrid is going to open at 12 o’clock, right? And so, your answer needs to be in by 12:10. All right, so they’re not going to have a ton of time to go research and and also, it’s like, Hey, you already have to have that content inside of your head. You can look at that question and but then you’re also because it’s the Flipgrid because the video, you’re gonna hear them talking through it, or you’re gonna you’re gonna see them explaining their ideas right there. And so it’s, you know, it’s, it is the equivalent of staff sitting in front of them at the table and going alright, here’s the thing talk to me right now. It’s like, Ah, okay, I gotta get it together. So, so that that would really require that they have a good you know, solid concept of whatever it is they’re talking about. But then Tim, as you talked about, too, with Flipgrid they can go the next step and you can say okay, now that now it’s 1210 Now you’re gonna go look at another classmates you know you did a pro they did a con you’re gonna go look at their and someone else’s opposite and And then you’re going to respond back to them before 1220. Right. So the whole thing would be done in whatever amount of time you said, as a teacher, but there’s a lot of cool ways to kind of play with that. And I think with with Flipgrid, you really do get to see their thinking process, because it’s a live video right there in the moment that they’re doing so. So I think there’s a lot to play with there.

Tim Van Norman 25:22
Absolutely. The next one here, this is really broad, and that is projects, there’s so many different ways to do this, in almost every class, you’ve got something where you can do some sort of a project. And this can be simple, it can be group project, it can be whatever, but the the thing I love about projects, is, it’s really hard for somebody to claim it somebody, it’s not somebody else’s work, or that, you know, if it’s somebody else’s work, it’s going to be really clear i on a project, and so you eliminate that part. And it’s over time, you don’t have to worry about it being Oh, it has to be done right this moment, or whatever. This should a project should take time it should take research, they’re going to learn, they’re going to apply the knowledge that you’ve been giving them over the semester.

Brent Warner 26:18
Yeah, yeah. And like I said, we do presentations, all those types of things. A lot of us already do those. And so it’s like, why not make this be the final exam, right. So that that presentation, that project, whatever it is, and so some teachers will do things like this. And then the final day, is kind of like the share out, right. So they’ll have like, you know, a gallery walk where you go around to the and look at different people’s presentations or projects or, you know, you might do like a film festival if it’s recorded things, right. So there’s a lot of cool ways, and then that that can end the class on a high note, too, instead of like, I think I failed my last test. I’m so bummed out. Well, all right. Good thing, it’s summer. So yeah, there’s a lot to play with there. And I think this will connect to, you know, this could also be a project of course, like video walkthroughs, right. And so, again, this could be Flipgrid. Or it could be whatever, it could be like a Screencast O Matic where you’re just recording yourself going through something. But the idea where the students will actually walk through their thought process and verbalize what they’re doing, as they’re going through it right. And so it’s not just give me the answer. It’s show me the entire process as you as you think about it, and as you develop what you’re doing. And so, you could do that for you could say like, Hey, you’re gonna show me on a handful of the questions. Let’s say you’ve got 20 questions on this test, I don’t know. 100 questions on this test, whatever it is, and you’re gonna do, you’re gonna walk me through question seven, question 28. To question. You know, 52, and question 91. Right. Okay. Right. So and everything else you’ll do yourself. But those ones, you’ll slow down a little bit, and you’ll show me your thought process for it. And that can prove that the student knows what they’re talking about, right? It shows it shows their thought process through the whole thing.

Tim Van Norman 28:10
Absolutely makes your life easier. It’s more engaging. And in the end, that’s a huge deal. Building a game. So this is one I always hated when I was a student, is when when a professor or teacher would say, hey, all right, for your final project, you’re gonna build a game. But the reason I hated it is because I’m just not creative about the type of games so mine were always like flashcards or, or something, it was just always the same thing. But some people would get in, they would dig in. And the beauty of that is it allows them to be creative. And it allows them to share the knowledge that they’ve gained throughout the class, and then playing the game presumably, is then reiterating that knowledge again. And so going to the last day of class, there were a number of classes that I had where you had to turn in your game, the class before. And the last day of class. Everybody played games.

Brent Warner 29:06
That’s kind of cool. Yeah, that’s great.

Tim Van Norman 29:09
And theoretically, everybody knew all the answers, right? Yeah. But it was engaging. It was a fun last day of class.

Brent Warner 29:17
Yeah. And it ties into the reverse test, too, right. It’s like, you’ve already shown me that you already showed me that you’ve got what is going on. Now, let’s enjoy it right? Like you can, you can play with it that way. And so the last one I’ve got here, Tim is a tour guide. So depending, again, like what you’re talking about, but you could combine videos with Google Maps, and so you could do the I think it still exists the my google maps where you make a custom map with you know, that your own information inside of there. And students can physically walk you through famous places, resources, whatever. So you can also do this. We could do it with Padlet because Padlet has the map option as well. So you could like click in on certain places and then make a little video to talk about what’s going on in that place. Now, that could be And I want to I want to be careful here because it sounds like, okay, that’s not my field or whatever. But you could really get creative with that. So for example, if you’re doing, you know, Earth Sciences, and you’re doing like, you know, botany, for example, you could zoom in and say, Well, this is where this plant grows, right. And you can say, like, Here, here’s what it looks like in this area, I actually went there, I took some pictures of it, this is what you can see, when you come to this area of Southern California, when you go out to the high desert, then you’re going to see different things, right. And these are the type of plants that are out there. So obviously, you could go for famous landmarks, right? Where where major events happened in relationship to the things that you’re talking about. And the cool thing is wonderful if they can absolutely go if it’s local history, if it’s local things going on, but they can also go like, Hey, this is, you know, the bridge where Franz Ferdinand was attacked, right, or whatever else it is. So there’s a lot of cool ways to play with maps and show and how people show their understanding through that as well.

Tim Van Norman 31:00
And this goes back to one we talked a long time ago, that same thing can be used at the beginning of the class to have students introduce themselves to each other. Where am I from? So it, it can kind it could fit in lots of different ways to reuse that same concept, just by virtue of what you are looking for in your class.

Brent Warner 31:19
Yeah. So I think all of these are some good options here. I hope that, you know, our goal here is to get people thinking about it. And these might not be the specific answer for you in your class right now, none of them are things that you have to do. You know, we don’t want to come across as like, you know, this is the rule and this is the way that you must do it. But I think that it helps all of us to consider, okay, maybe there are better things that I can do, maybe there are ways that can be more fun, maybe there are ways that I can end the semester on a higher note, you know, or make the students feel good about the work that they’ve done throughout throughout all the time, and not just the high pressure of a final exam, right. And so, we hope that this is a Kickstarter for for you if you’re thinking about it and, and hopefully, you know, maybe maybe make a change to this semester’s final and see see if it can if you can make a change to it to make it better for you and for your students all around.

Tim Van Norman 32:18
Thank you for listening today. In this episode, we talked about the alternatives to proctored exams. For more information about this show, please visit our website at the higher ed tech podcast.com. There you will find our podcasts and links to the information we’ve covered.

Brent Warner 32:33
As always, we do want your feedback. So please go to the higher ed tech podcast.com and let us know your thoughts. If you have ideas for future shows. There’s a link on that page where you can give us your topic ideas

Tim Van Norman 32:45
for everyone at IVC this listening if you need help with technology questions, please contact IVC technical support and extension 5696 or by emailing IVCtech@ivc.edu. If you have questions about technology in your classroom, please contact me Tim VanNorman ad tvannorman@ivc.edu.

Brent Warner 33:05
And if you want to reach out to me about the show, you can find me on Twitter or Instagram at @BrentGWarner.

Tim Van Norman 33:11
I’m Tim Van Norman,

Brent Warner 33:12
and I’m Brent Warner and we hope this episode has helped you on the road from possibility to actuality. Have a good one.