Brent Warner 0:00
Meta glasses’ sales are through the roof, and the cost is a lot higher than the price of purchase. How do we deal with technology infringing on our privacy in the modern age? This is the HigherEdTech Podcast, Season Eight, Episode Five.

Tim Van Norman 0:25
Welcome to today’s Higher Ed Tech podcast. I’m Tim Van Norman, the Assistant Director of Technology Services at Irvine Valley College, an adjunct professor of business at Cypress College,

Brent Warner 0:35
and I’m Brent Warner, Professor of ESL here at IVC. We both enjoy integrating technology into the classroom, which is what this show is all about.

Tim Van Norman 0:43
Welcome. We’re glad you’re here with us. So AI, you know, we’ve had the last episode was on AI, but we’re we’re going to be talking about AI a lot. I like we’re going to take a little different twist with this. I think in getting into some physical parts of it, and what does it mean for the classroom? And I think this is important. My class, I don’t really care. It’s online. I’m assuming they’re using AI as much as they can, and so I have to deal with it in different ways. But I can imagine if I was sitting in a classroom, these would all be topics, conversations I’d want to make sure I was on top of what we’re talking about here

Brent Warner 1:27
Yeah, well, one one of our taglines at the beginning is we both enjoy integrating technology into the classroom, and now it’s like, well, do do we enjoy this technology so much? And we’ll talk about it. But so here, here, what we’re really talking about, I’m sure everybody has seen videos or seen them out in public. The Meta glasses-they’re not, not brand new. You know, they’ve been going for a year, and in fact, they’re like massive sellers for Meta and Facebook and for all those things. So, if you haven’t seen them, I think, is worth just clarifying. We’re talking about these glasses. They’re kind of made between Meta and Ray Ban, I guess, is the most part. They might have some other collaborations and things, but essentially, they have cameras built into them. Like off to the side, they’re very discreet. They have microphones built into them. They have little displays in the lenses of the cameras. They can speak to you through, I think, bone conduction. I think that’s how they work. So essentially, it’s a whole interactive AI computer that you’re putting right on your face, right? And so, you know, a lot of people are buying that real fast without thinking about what what might be involved and what kind of changes that can have on things. And so, Tim, I know we’re gonna we’re gonna spend most of the time kind of talking about Meta, but like at the beginning pre-show, you you’re like, hey, hold on a second. There’s actually other things that are doing this just in different ways. So let’s talk about the big picture, and then we’ll kind of focus in as on Meta as our example,

Tim Van Norman 3:01
Yeah. So one of the things that I often pay attention to is myself. I have glasses and I have hearing aids. My hearing aids hook up to my phone, so I could literally have my phone 30 feet away from me,

Brent Warner 3:16
Right.

Tim Van Norman 3:17
and be talking on the phone through my hearing aids, and as long as I don’t make a noise, you wouldn’t even know that I’m not listening to you.

Brent Warner 3:27
Yeah,

Tim Van Norman 3:28
and so that’s been something that I’ve always been concerned with, or I have at least in the last six, eight years with regard to hearing aids and cell phones and stuff like that, but we also are constantly having things like Otter, Read AI stuff like that show up in meetings. The AI companions, and if you forget to turn off an AI companion, for instance, in Zoom, it may show up. It may send out an email to everybody who attended that meeting with its or who was invited to the meeting? Okay, I’ll be real careful with that word. Everybody invited to the meeting. It may send an email to them with this is the summary of the meeting. Well, now if you were in the meeting, you hopefully understand the context of what was going on in the meeting. Yes. If you were not in the meeting, do you really understand that Tim Van Norman was these eight people sitting in a room, and so Tim Van Norman didn’t necessarily say that it was Brent or it was somebody else who was saying whatever that was? And did you actually get context for that whole conversation? I know a lot of times I’m in a meeting, and the assumption is that the if you are in the meeting, you are part of the meeting. If you are not physically in the meeting, you’re not part of that meeting. And so, minutes from the meeting you might get, but there’s no reason for you to get the. The verbiage directly from that meeting.

Brent Warner 5:02
Yeah

Tim Van Norman 5:03
It would completely change the meeting.

Brent Warner 5:05
If I remember correctly, I think we actually did an episode talking kind of about some of these issues here. And one of these, one of the things to kind of remind people too is like, you know, sometimes you have these private conversations with each other because that’s just what it is to be human, and you forget that you’re being recorded, or you forget that it’s on, and so Tim says, you know, oh, you know, Brent Warner, he’s a real dum dum, (laughter) and like I wasn’t there, and then like I get a message from that too. It’s like, oh, that wasn’t, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, it that might be a silly example, but something to be worth, you know, to consider and and be aware of that, you know, it’s so much surveillance. So much is like happening all the time, and so, so today we’re going to focus in, Tim, kind of on Meta because it has the hearing aid compatibility, or you know, the issue that you’re talking about. It has the like, what is it to be plugged into a meeting? I think we’ve kind of figured out, you know, we’ve done a better job of like oh I’m on Zoom I’m going to be a little careful I know what’s going out there is digital it’s whatever but we don’t think about those in terms of being involved in human day to day life right

Tim Van Norman 6:12
Absolutely especially when I’m talking to you directly I’m I’m not assuming I’m being recorded when we’re standing out outside the cafe and just having a conversation,

Brent Warner 6:25
Right.

Tim Van Norman 6:26
Why would I think I’m being recorded? Nobody’s around, you know. And but yet, we’re literally the potential is there.

Brent Warner 6:36
Yeah. Well, and I mean, this is they talk about this idea of the surveillance economy, right? Like where it’s like, hey, everything’s being recorded all the time, and this is just adding to it, right? If you don’t like that idea, if you feel like you know, if you’re a person who says, hey, these flock cameras are a problem for me, right? I don’t want my car being tracked everywhere I go. Well, yes, for sure, and you’re already very much being tracked everywhere you go on your phone, whether or not you’re opting in, or you probably opting into that, right? But also whether or not you are, it doesn’t matter because there’s so many like tricky algorithms that can figure it out. We’ve talked about those things where like young women before they even knew they were pregnant were getting you know letters in the mail because the things that they happen to be buying at Target are indicators of prenatal care that maybe they don’t even recognize they’re hungry for this thing. It’s just like wild, right? So, so this is a more proactive thing where you’re saying, “Hey, I’m going to participate in this surveillance economy, and I am going to provide context or provide information directly, you know, to the world because I think it might help me in a little bit. But it’s also going to all of these companies, right? That like, let’s not forget that stuff. It’s not like your information is private, and I haven’t looked into these, but I’m assuming they’re probably saying there’s some level of privacy. But we know these companies don’t really have a good track record with this at all, so

Tim Van Norman 8:02
Well, And even at that, let’s assume that Meta is not going to do anything with it. It’s just going to be on your glasses because you happen to have those. I don’t have any control of you looking and going, “Oh, here’s a clip of a conversation I had with Tim. I’m going to put it on YouTube.

Brent Warner 8:19
Yes, and and that’s a you know that’s a generous assumption on your part, Tim, to say that I’m teasing, but but you know you’re right. Like and people are do are already doing these things that are totally unethical. So there was an article in Slate that talked about you know the problems that these glasses are causing at schools, how students really feel quite uncomfortable with them, and especially we’re going to get to this later, but I think now’s a good time. You know, they’ve got these, you know, these young men who are whatever their agenda is. I’m not sure, but they’re going and harassing young women. They’re taking videos of them. They’re posting them up online without their consent, right? And they don’t, and the women don’t even know until later, and they’re like, “Oh, that was meta glasses. I thought it was just a guy being a jerk on campus, which is bad enough, right? And now is posting it for money or for likes or you know whatever else is going on. So there are some real, real problems here. But let’s start breaking it down into a few of the areas first. So let’s talk about glasses in the classroom, Tim. So now you’re teaching online, right? Yep. So I teach in person. This is a big one.

Tim Van Norman 9:34
Well, and so online, just even even from an online standpoint, my my videos are going through, and I’m using Senge. Sendage has given me slide decks to use. All right, and part of the requirement is that I do not post them online.

Brent Warner 9:56
Okay.

Tim Van Norman 9:57
Alright. So if I have a video. That is only available to my class. It’s not available publicly. Then I’m within those rights. But what’s to say somebody else, somebody doesn’t watch that and then post that or parts of it or something like that online? Now, am I violating the copyright?

Brent Warner 10:17
Mhmm..

Tim Van Norman 10:18
and I’m talking really low stakes right now. This gets a lot higher really, really quick, especially when you start dealing with in-person classes.

Brent Warner 10:28
Yeah, for sure. So you might have, you know, one students could be could be recording the class, right? By the way, let’s point out right now, Tim. Like most schools have policies against recording in the classroom, right? Without explicit permission, so explicit written permission. At IVC, we have AR 5500 section three. I think that subsection O and Q are the most relevant. I’m not going to read the whole things, but basically for O, it says unauthorized. There’s a problem. You’re not allowed to have unauthorized recording, dissemination, and publication of academic presentations or materials. This prohibition applies to recording made in any medium, right? And then Q gets into like all sorts of things around academic dishonesty through falsification, plagiarism, etc. All of these might fall into the category. So, okay, we’ve got policies up front, but a lot of times, like those, aren’t very clearly communicated to students. You know, like people just kind of assume they’re going to get it. But I’ve seen so many times when a student just pops on a camera and they’re just like, “I’m just going to record this, and it’s like, “Okay, do you know? Like, have you gone through the steps, right? And and in the past, I’ve kind of been like, it’s okay, like, because I don’t mind like my lessons. I let people walk in and see my lessons if they want to. I’m not particularly doing anything nefarious in my classes. But at the same time, if it’s now not a small camera in the corner, pointed at the teacher, but what’s on your eyes and where you’re looking around and moving around and checking out other people’s computers and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then we’re really talking about a lot of possible private information, things that could be problematic, you know, and a lot less clarity on what a person is doing with that information and how and why they’re doing it.

Tim Van Norman 12:26
Absolutely, and also California is a dual consent state. So technically, if they post anything online, make it public, that is illegal. Yeah, if they don’t have the consent by everybody.

Brent Warner 12:42
Oh, not even posting. It’s recording, right? Like just just holding the recording for yourself. So the language is that it’s illegal to intentionally record a confidential conversation without obtaining consent from every participant involved, right? So that’s pretty serious, right? Like, good. The the stick is there, but is there any enforcement? It gets a lot trickier there.

Tim Van Norman 13:08
And even can they enforce it?

Brent Warner 13:09
Well, especially at mass scale, right?

Tim Van Norman 13:11
Exactly. Absolutely. And so, to me, that’s the thing. Is it’s one thing as a teacher, I expect I a lot of what I do, what I present, is recorded, so I’m I’m good with that. But if I’m just a part, if I’m sitting at a conference next to somebody, and I say, “Wow, I didn’t that didn’t make any sense to me, or I disagree with that, I’m having a private conversation with you. That is not something that should be posted. Yeah. Hey, Tim Van Norman says that this is wrong. No, that’s you know it’s a private conversation, and that’s it’s one of those things that to me that’s one of the big dangers of this type of thing. And I I don’t want to be a whole huge negative Nelly and all of this stuff because I think there’s some really cool things that can happen with it, but I do think that in the classroom, especially in education, we run the risk of a lot of negative because I don’t want a student not to raise their hand, not to ask a question because they’re afraid the person beside them is going to use that against them.

Brent Warner 14:20
Oh yeah, well I mean, yes, 100% there. And then we can also just get right into test taking conversation, right? I know we’ve we’ve talked so much about academic integrity. Well, okay, so now you could you could in theory just turn on your glasses, and every question it sees, it will now on the screen on your lens, it will display the answer to it, or it’ll answer it through your you know earphones or the bone conduction or whatever that it does, and it will just tell you at every the answer to every question as you’re going through. Right, that’s a real possibility inside of there, and so it’s like, okay, so what? We do with that, and we’ve got this other problem. The biggest problem here with this all for me, Tim, is that if a student has a prescription for glasses and they put their only prescription into these AI glasses, then they’re talking about a legitimate need for support versus a you know this AI addition onto it, and it’s like if you’re telling a student they have to take off their glasses because they’re potentially cheating machines, but they don’t have a replacement pair of glasses, that’s a real sticky situation we’re starting to find ourselves in.

Tim Van Norman 15:34
Oh, 100% That’s same thing. Like I was saying, hearing aids earlier, you’re never going to ask a student to take their hearing aids out of their ear. You know, earbuds, absolutely. You to ask them to take them out, but hearing aids, no, that that could be embarrassing. That’s all kinds of different possibilities. You’re not going to do that yet. Like I said my phone is literally hooked up to my hearing aids.

Brent Warner 16:03
Yeah, so I –

Tim Van Norman 16:05
I could listen to you present on a topic while I’m taking a test. Yes, you wouldn’t have any clue that I did that.

Brent Warner 16:13
Yeah, well, and then also there’s just like with the the you know the the earbuds or whatever it is, right? Like I get. I get that this is like generational, and as we’re getting older, it’s like more of you know, like it’s less of a problem for younger people. But earbuds in the ear when you’re talking to someone is totally rude from my my generational perspective, right? Like you take those things out when you’re listening to someone, right? Now, when a lot of younger kids don’t always do that, and they’re like, “Oh, I’m not listening to anything. It’s just this is where I’m holding it, you know, in my ears. But, but that being said, with the glasses, it’s like you don’t even know when they’re totally distracted, right? They can actually literally be watching a TV show as they’re staring you in the eye, right? And that, wow, it’s it’s the the implications are really frightening, and they’re just very confusing because they go against millions of years of human evolution on what we understand when we’re talking to people and interacting with them, and what those you know body language indicators mean to us, and those are all being taken away from us, so it’s a really, really tricky thing.

Tim Van Norman 17:23
Absolutely. So, some of the cool things that can happen stepping out of specific areas of of academia. I love the fact that a lot of these earbuds, even the glasses and stuff like that, will translate for you into your language, well, that’s great. If I’m walking around and I decided to go to Mexico, and I don’t speak Spanish, I barely can speak Spanish in any way. So it would be really great to have something automatically translate whatever somebody says into my something I can understand.

Brent Warner 18:01
Yeah.

Tim Van Norman 18:01
That’d be great. Okay, but that’s a non-academic situation.

Brent Warner 18:06
Yeah. Also, just yeah, I mean, totally, it’s amazing. Like, what a cool thing. That’s also the reason that you know in the Bible God tore down the Tower of Babel. Just you know, pointed it out there for those of you who are into those kinds of stories, so here we are again. But there’s other situations too on campus, Tim. So it’s not just classroom, right? Because you go into meetings, right? As a manager, as a you know, you go into private rooms with confidential information displayed on computers. What are some of the things that you think about? Not necessarily classroom, but like just around campus.

Tim Van Norman 18:42
So my office, I’m assistant director of technology. The last thing I want is students’ FERPA information, their personal, personally identifiable information to get out. To even somebody to know that they called in. We have our doors locked on purpose. We don’t want just anybody walking in at any time, because that could be scary. Now, just think about myself or one of my people wearing those glasses during the day. Just that alone, the chances of a FERPA violation go up really, really fast.

Brent Warner 19:20
I’m also again. I’m getting a little conspiracy-ish on this one, but there have been, you know, like there is the technology out there, and this is wild too. Is that like you take a picture of someone’s face, and then the reflection in their eye can be zoomed into, and you can see the entirety of the room out of the reflection, and then AI can analyze what’s going on there? So Tim, in your office, and I’ve been in there. Like you’re sitting behind the desk, and nobody can see what’s on your screen. But if I can see in your eyes, and I’m taking a picture of what’s going on there, then I can just zoom in and look at everything that’s going on in your computer screen at the same time. This is where we’re moving, right? Like, and it’s like, okay, hold on a second. Are we? Having any situations dealing with this? Are we are we actually paying attention to it, et cetera? So tons of privacy information problems potentially, and you know, like as it becomes normalized to have these types of glasses out there, you know, that’s these are things that just start to fade away, and we start throwing away our privacy and and saying like okay, am I willing to give this up for the comfort of another person to be able to look something up a couple minutes faster or you know whatever else it is and so these are are really tricky. Also, people have been doing things they’ve been hacking through some of the glasses. Tim, did you hear about the lights? The lights on the meta glasses,

Tim Van Norman 20:41
Trying to cover them up and make it so that you couldn’t tell that they’re recording and stuff like that. Yeah,

Brent Warner 20:46
Yeah, yeah. So I okay. So one meta is moving in some directions to fix these, but there has been a solution for a lot of people because basically what happens is when those cameras are recording, they light up with a little ring of light around them, and then people figured out that you could get those hole punch stickers, basically, you know, like when you punch a hole in a piece of paper and then it get a little tear, so it’s like reinforcing it. You can stick those things on around the the rim, and then there you go again. You’re free and clear, and you can record everything you want without anybody knowing that you’re recording. Now, admittedly, Meta did make a fix for this, or trying to make a fix, which is like kind of recognizing when there’s a reflection coming through or not. There, you know, something like that. All I’m saying is that people are incentivized to hack these things in different ways, and so the so we’re having a lot of problems with this, right? So the other thing is too. We talked about this, but like nobody’s consenting to being videoed or recorded all the time, right? And so when a student walks in a room with these things, it’s different than holding a phone, right? With a phone, you’re like, hey, your arms up, you’re holding this thing out in front of your face. We kind of recognize that you’re trying to record something or that you’re doing something. I am still very uncomfortable, even when kids are on campus, you know, doing their like selfie videos or whatever that they do. I don’t, you know, I don’t, I don’t have a problem with them doing that. But when I see them holding up the camera, I’m always like, well, which direction is is the camera facing? Is it facing out towards me? Is it facing towards them? Like, what are what’s you know? And so, again, things that become less and less obvious and more and more confusing for us all to figure out.

Tim Van Norman 22:24
Absolutely, and and in the end, I would say that in my experience and my very limited experience, people who are recording all the time are they really going back through and using that recording, or are they just collecting? Are are they basically becoming digital hoarders?

Brent Warner 22:43
Yep. Yes.

Tim Van Norman 22:44
Okay. And the problem with digital hoarding is that can go anywhere really, really fast. I know I have accidentally sent. Oh, here, just go to this folder, and it’s got all of that information in it, and then realize, yeah, and there’s 12 other folders in here that you didn’t need, you know.

Brent Warner 23:04
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Van Norman 23:05
And so, I’m – That’s one of the things that for me is a big concern is when it comes to things like digital hoarding. Is that person going to be conscious, conscientious, and conscious of oh, I don’t need this anymore. Delete. I know I’ve got five of the same picture, and oh yeah, well I’ll just go through and I’ll clean it up later and delete it. Well, later never comes, you know. And so it’s one of those things that I’m. That’s one of my big concerns.

Brent Warner 23:38
Yeah

Tim Van Norman 23:39
What happens with that digital hoarding,

Brent Warner 23:41
for sure? And for me, my big picture question is: Do you trust Meta or any of these companies to behave ethically with the data that they’re collecting? Right, like it’s you know that is information that is being run up online into their servers and processed online, and you’re giving them money to do that. It’s not the other way around, right? Like you’re giving them money to process data to have for their own sales or for their own information. That’s a real concern. But here, Tim, at the end, we have the problem, though, right? Which is like, no matter what’s going on with this, it’s very uncomfortable for us. If if I’m the if I’m the person who is feeling uncomfortable around this? Right now, I have to be the one to call the person out and say, “Hey, I don’t like you having these glasses on,” right? “I don’t like you having these things. Like it is an uncomfortable situation for me,” and you know, like we have to start learning how to call these things out. Is it bad behavior? Is it totally justified? Like, is it is it something that like I just need to go and tell people as I walk up to them, just being like, “Hey, I see you’re wearing those glasses. I’m not comfortable with them around. Would you mind putting them in your pocket, or perhaps we can you know cancel this conversation until you know.” Like, what do we do with this? This is really tricky.

Tim Van Norman 25:02
Yep, and I love how you said we have to be outspoken and talk about it because the reality is, once I put on my glasses, I don’t think about them anymore.

Brent Warner 25:17
That’s right.

Tim Van Norman 25:19
Okay, I’m not concerned with somebody else, somebody else’s opinion of my glasses. Okay, they’re part of my face. They’re they’re part of my personality, my me. So I’m imagining that somebody who’s wearing that type of glasses, at least very quickly, will get to that point of well, this is just me. I charge my glasses every night. I, you know, whatever. And so, if I’m in that world, why would I? Why would I be concerned about it? And so, be we have to be intentional, and that especially in the classroom, if you don’t want to be recorded, you need to be intentional about that. Then the question becomes how. Yeah, that’s a discussion I don’t I don’t have a good answer to.

Brent Warner 26:07
Yeah, and I think I think one, you know, being very clear about it on the first day of class when you go over your syllabus and all of those kinds of things, like you you should be talking about it and you should be bringing these up explicitly, but you do still have the problem now that you have the one student in the class who’s wearing those, and now they’re being singled out as you’re talking about the problem with these things. So, like, is it more polite to if you if you find that someone in the class has that, like, pull them aside separately and say, “Hey, you know, just so you know, these are these types of glasses are a problem in the class, and like, you know, like we all have to work together to start having ways of dealing with these. And I think that really there’s going to be a lot of. I imagine there’s going to be workshops on dealing with these things, how to deal with privacy, you know, in the modern age, etc. It’s it’s a lot, and I hope people are working on figuring out things on their campuses. You know, I brought it up a couple times on our campus. It hasn’t quite pushed forward yet as a major concern, but I’m not on campus this semester, so you know, my my imagination is that like when I come back next semester, I’ll be seeing a lot more of them than I was, you know, six months ago, a year ago, whatever it was.

Tim Van Norman 27:24
Well, and they’re right now with the all the different frame styles and stuff like that. You might not even know.

Brent Warner 27:30
That’s right. Yeah.

Tim Van Norman 27:31
It’s pretty easy because they look like glasses.

Brent Warner 27:35
Yeah, you have to slow down and really look at each person’s face and see what’s going on with their frames and every single time, so we got a lot coming at us with this. You know, be thoughtful, be intentional. You know, be a good person to the people dealing with these things. It’s you know, it it’s not the you know, it’s a real problem, and it’s not really appropriate to just go in and attack people for you know not being as thoughtful as they might be around what’s going on with it. So, if you have ideas on how to deal with this, send us a message because I think we’re still we’re still not totally sorted out. But lots to think about here for sure.

Tim Van Norman 28:13
I also want to point out that you may find reasons for you to wear the glasses like that. Okay, so you should consider those same topics that we just talked about in your classroom. Is it appropriate to wear those glasses when you’re teaching students? You know that type of thing. Just as always, be aware of your surroundings and be aware of what impact your decisions can make on other people?

Brent Warner 28:43
Definitely.

Tim Van Norman 28:44
Thank you for listening today. For more information about the show, please visit our website atthehigheredtechpodcast.com.

Brent Warner 28:53
As always, we do want your feedback, so please go to thehigheredtechpodcast.com and let us know your thoughts.

Tim Van Norman 29:00
For everyone at IVC that’s listening, if you need help with technology questions, please contact IVC Tech Support. If you have questions about technology in your classroom, please contact me, Tim Van Norman, at IVC at tvannormanivc.edu.

Brent Warner 29:13
And if you want to reach out to me about the show, you can find me on LinkedIn at @BrentGWarner.

Tim Van Norman 29:20
I’m Tim Van Norman,

Brent Warner 29:21
and I’m Brent Warner, and we hope this episode has helped you on the road from possibility to actuality. Take care, everybody.